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Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:57 am
by Saffron
An Anglo-Saxon coin discovered by a metal detectorist is set to fetch up to £200,000 at auction.

The Gold Penny, or Mancus of 30 Pence, was struck during the time of Ecgberht, King of the West Saxons between 802 and 839.

It was unearthed by a metal detectorist at West Dean, on the Wiltshire and Hampshire border, in March 2020.

More details, and high quality photos, in link below.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk- ... t-auction/

Evan

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:32 am
by shaggybfc
Wow - what a find of a lifetime! :thumbsup: But, that would be such a bittersweet find. Knowing that it'll have to be sold, as you couldn't afford to pay the landowner their share to keep it....

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:23 am
by Pete E
Saffron wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:57 am
An Anglo-Saxon coin discovered by a metal detectorist is set to fetch up to £200,000 at auction.

The Gold Penny, or Mancus of 30 Pence, was struck during the time of Ecgberht, King of the West Saxons between 802 and 839.

It was unearthed by a metal detectorist at West Dean, on the Wiltshire and Hampshire border, in March 2020.

More details, and high quality photos, in link below.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk- ... t-auction/

Evan
As somebody said in our club, they really should not have made the location public, even if it is fairly general...

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:42 am
by mattjb
shaggybfc wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:32 am
Wow - what a find of a lifetime! :thumbsup: But, that would be such a bittersweet find. Knowing that it'll have to be sold, as you couldn't afford to pay the landowner their share to keep it....
I’m sure 100k in the pocket would be sweet enough!

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:19 pm
by Allectus
shaggybfc wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:32 am
Wow - what a find of a lifetime! :thumbsup: But, that would be such a bittersweet find. Knowing that it'll have to be sold, as you couldn't afford to pay the landowner their share to keep it....
Yeah, a right kick in the pants with 100k in your sky!! :roll: :roll: :lol:

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:18 am
by Steve RC
The outcome of the auction will be interesting. This type of coin is one of the very reasons that a modification to the Treasure Act has been proposed under the recent Review to capture single Roman and Anglo Saxon gold coins as Treasure.

That suggests an intent to redress the issue of the last gold Mancus that came up for auction selling for an eye watering sum to a private buyer. To stop it going abroad an export ban was placed on it so that an institution or even an individual could buy it for the nation. In the end the British Museum had to pay up to keep it in the UK which meant also covering the original buyer premiums on top of the sale value. No doubt that put a serious dint in their purchase budget for a year or two.

So why capture them as Treasure ? Perhaps there is an expectation that the TVC would, if the Coenwulf Mancus had come before them as Treasure, have placed a lower value on it. Now there is a precedence and that may well reflect the price that this new example will make at auction.

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:54 pm
by Wardie1994
More to the point why haven’t the BM bought it ? I know they always under value items and they have t got the biggest of budgets but something as special as this which is likely to be a one time coin should have been snatched up

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:57 pm
by Pete E
Steve RC wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:18 am
So why capture them as Treasure ? Perhaps there is an expectation that the TVC would, if the Coenwulf Mancus had come before them as Treasure, have placed a lower value on it. Now there is a precedence and that may well reflect the price that this new example will make at auction.
I know the intent of the process is meant to be "fair" to the finder/owner, but there is no way the TVR can effectively determine the market value of rare items like these coins...maybe the Government should change the system and make the BM bid at auction for treasure items it wants, but make these treasure items subject to a purchase tax of say 20% (with the BM exempt)....Such a tax might dampen down the bidding a bit allowing the BM to be competitive and in instances where they still loose the auction, revenues from this tax could go to the BM to help finance future purchases....

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:09 pm
by Oxgirl
For god sake what does a museum want with all these coins? Are they going to display them? Of course not.

How come antique paintings and furniture can be happily owned by private individuals but not coins? What can’t us ‘plebs’ be trusted to keep them safe and own them and touch and enjoy them. Why is it right for only a few academics to see them. They won’t ever be seen by any of us, the taxpayers, because they’ll be stuck in a drawer with the tens of thousands of other items in museum stores, never to see the light of day.

Surely HD photos and proper cataloguing is enough? They can’t analyse the gold properly without destroying it so why does the taxpayer need to fork out for a select few to look at it in their cotton gloved hands every few years.

It infuriates me - let it be admired and handled by someone. If you are going to fork out a fortune on the thing you are hardly going to not look after it very, very carefully.

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:13 pm
by alloverover
Pete E wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:57 pm
Steve RC wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:18 am
So why capture them as Treasure ? Perhaps there is an expectation that the TVC would, if the Coenwulf Mancus had come before them as Treasure, have placed a lower value on it. Now there is a precedence and that may well reflect the price that this new example will make at auction.

I know the intent of the process is meant to be "fair" to the finder/owner, but there is no way the TVR can effectively determine the market value of rare items like these coins...maybe the Government should change the system and make the BM bid at auction for treasure items it wants, but make these treasure items subject to a purchase tax of say 20% (with the BM exempt)....Such a tax might dampen down the bidding a bit allowing the BM to be competitive and in instances where they still loose the auction, revenues from this tax could go to the BM to help finance future purchases....
Most auction houses already have a 20% buyers premium if not a bit more, do you suggest 20% on top of that ?

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:51 am
by Pete E
alloverover wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:13 pm
Pete E wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:57 pm
Steve RC wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:18 am
So why capture them as Treasure ? Perhaps there is an expectation that the TVC would, if the Coenwulf Mancus had come before them as Treasure, have placed a lower value on it. Now there is a precedence and that may well reflect the price that this new example will make at auction.

I know the intent of the process is meant to be "fair" to the finder/owner, but there is no way the TVR can effectively determine the market value of rare items like these coins...maybe the Government should change the system and make the BM bid at auction for treasure items it wants, but make these treasure items subject to a purchase tax of say 20% (with the BM exempt)....Such a tax might dampen down the bidding a bit allowing the BM to be competitive and in instances where they still loose the auction, revenues from this tax could go to the BM to help finance future purchases....
Most auction houses already have a 20% buyers premium if not a bit more, do you suggest 20% on top of that ?
Somebody would have to sit down and look at the economics properly, but yes some sort "weighting," to encourage sellers to favour the BM...it might not be for every treasure item, maybe only those that are deemed to be particularly important to the nation....

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:54 am
by Wardie1994
Oxgirl wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:09 pm
For god sake what does a museum want with all these coins? Are they going to display them? Of course not.

How come antique paintings and furniture can be happily owned by private individuals but not coins? What can’t us ‘plebs’ be trusted to keep them safe and own them and touch and enjoy them. Why is it right for only a few academics to see them. They won’t ever be seen by any of us, the taxpayers, because they’ll be stuck in a drawer with the tens of thousands of other items in museum stores, never to see the light of day.

Surely HD photos and proper cataloguing is enough? They can’t analyse the gold properly without destroying it so why does the taxpayer need to fork out for a select few to look at it in their cotton gloved hands every few years.

It infuriates me - let it be admired and handled by someone. If you are going to fork out a fortune on the thing you are hardly going to not look after it very, very carefully.
I don’t disagree with you on that point but something as rare as this would surely be on display and not stuffed in a draw collecting dust, but can nearly guarantee they would have offered bugger all for the coin where as we all know it will fetch more than 200k at auction without a doubt

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:19 am
by Pete E
Oxgirl wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:09 pm
For god sake what does a museum want with all these coins? Are they going to display them? Of course not.

How come antique paintings and furniture can be happily owned by private individuals but not coins? What can’t us ‘plebs’ be trusted to keep them safe and own them and touch and enjoy them. Why is it right for only a few academics to see them. They won’t ever be seen by any of us, the taxpayers, because they’ll be stuck in a drawer with the tens of thousands of other items in museum stores, never to see the light of day.
I don't think it's just coins that are the issue, it's any item that goes through the treasure process...

I heard of one detectorist who found a silver thimble dating back to the late 1600's...it went through the treasure process, the BM did not want it, but a local museum bought it for "their collection"....the guy was gutted and it seems the museum only bought because it was valued at a relatively modest price so they could afford it...

I truly believe items of "national importance" should be preserved for the public and be displayed for the public to see...But relatively common finds such as a few Eddie hammereds from a purse spill, or that thimble should be returned to the finder/owner once they have been recorded...

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:55 pm
by Spook
I’ve never understood how they just take ownership of something that they no longer own.
As a nation they made it and sold it , how can they now take it off you a claim it ,
If the nation wants it, it should just offer to buy it, the current owner should decide if they want to sell it or not .
Regardless of their decision the coin once recorded should go back to the current owner .
But unfortunately that’s not the law

Re: Anglo-Saxon coin to fetch £200,000

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:40 pm
by Oxgirl
One thing we all have to remember (despite my views about museums acquired things they’ll never display) is that treasure items are automatically legally owned by The Crown - neither the finder or land owner has any legal ownership from the moment it is found. Obviously this single gold coin does not classify as treasure but if it was a treasure item then The Crown wouldn’t buying it from us, they are just giving the finder and land owner a reward. The reward should be based on market value but that can be difficult to gauge and I guess it is likely to be based on conservative estimates of value. Once a museum acquires it we’ll never know what it would have fetched at auction - it is the way it is.

But anyway, as I said before, this isn’t a treasure item and the BM have looked at it, analysed it and found out everything they need to know to build up a very detailed record for any researcher. Owning it adds no value to the nation so why waste £200k? I doubt any member of the public gives a monkey about seeing it in a glass case. If they did then doing an exact gold replica would cost about 1% of the real thing so do that and save £198k! After all lots of coins on display in museums are replicas anyway (and that’s a true fact!). If it was a Roman statue or stunning piece of jewellery that’s not the same.