The latest covid regulation guidance

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Easylife
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It seems that it is just the use of an actual metal detector that is not allowed.
So I guess that magnet fishing, fossicking, and digging holes at random is still okay? :rollinglaughing:
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DaveP
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Easylife wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:46 pm But I was wondering if owning a river bank on it's own is the same as just owning the rights to use it?
It depends. You can own the land adjacent, the bank, and the rights. The fact that all three can be owned separately means they can all belong to different people.
I was trying to buy a stretch of river a few years back but in one case the fishing rights had been put on a very long lease to a local club so I wouldn't be able to stop them, and on another the rights had been separated and kept by the seller. Again, they could just come and go. Needless to say I didn't purchase either.

In this odd situation for the neighbour you get the following. The bank has no dimensions so he could say the bank owner cannot walk on his land to get to the bank. However, the bank owner also has the riperian rights and has a duty to those downstream to maintain the water course and water quality, which may mean repairing or reinforcing the banks. But how do you repair something that has no known dimensions and is defined as "the edge of...." and so on....and so on....and...... Luckily this is a very rare situation.
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TheFenTiger wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:30 pm I would have to look it up but I am not sure that is true. It is private land with permitted public access as a right of way. Doesn't mean you can detect it as it is a public space. There are people new to the hobby that think this is the case that because it is "public" they can detect on it without any permission. Public spaces from my interpretation would be owned by councils or the crown.
Correct - the right is JUST to walk over it or whatever is allowed in the access rights for that piece of land. If it’s a bridleway then you can ride a horse, for example. In fact digging a public footpath across a field isn’t actually allowed anytime (even if you have permission to detect on that land) if you get really technical. But that’s a whole new debate that I really don’t think we should get into :silent:
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Oxgirl wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:27 pm In fact digging a public footpath across a field isn’t actually allowed anytime (even if you have permission to detect on that land) if you get really technical. But that’s a whole new debate that I really don’t think we should get into :silent:
I think you may be wrong there Cath..


The landowner still owns the land a public footpath is on, and can do pretty much what he likes with it as long as it doesn't impede its use as a footpath. So he can plough it, put ditches or fences along or across it, as long as he allows continued access. When he gives you permission to detect, dig and recover items, it's the same. I believe you would only be breaking the law if you left the footpath in such a bad condition it could reasonably be considered unusable...

With regards Joe Public however, they only have a right to walk on that footpath as the landowner has not given them permission to do anything else. They should not even pick mushrooms blackberries ect that maybe growing on the footpath.

Where it gets really interesting from a legal point of view is if you have permission to detect on ground covered by the CROW Act. This is essentially open access ground much in the same way a beach is...So once the Tier system is reintroduced, I would say if you have permission to detect on such ground, legally it should be treated the same way as detecting on the beach?

The real problem with this of course is that that the only way to know for sure is to be willing to fight your corner in court....
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Kenleyboy wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:27 pm
I must admit I have never heard of an independant landowner owning the banks of a river on someone elses property . A friend of mine has a river running through his property , he owns the bank on his land and can fish to the halfway point while the opposite bank is owned by his neighbour who can do likewise . On our private woodland lake there are four seperate landowners each owning their own respective banks and we have access to one bank only while the others do not permit the use of their banks . It can be a minefield out there .
I vaguely remember a case like this from years ago. It was a case where the river's navigation trust owned the bank of the river rather than the adjacent landowner and was so that they had access to the waterway if required. I do not remember the full details and never knew how wide the definition of "bank" was. In practice it made no difference as the "bank" was not fenced off and the adjacent landowner had free access to the river - however I could imagine problems if either party wanted to partition off the "bank" from the adjacent land or other issues arose.

But the above is a very rare exception. Normally the adjacent landowner is the riparian owner with rights and responsibilities to the middle of the river.

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Oxgirl wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:10 am
<cut>

Stupidly they have now also built river banks and waterway access into the definition of ‘public access land’ in the legislation too, so removing it now would cause an even bigger public outcry. Those MPs who enjoy fishing did a good job in helping themselves to get what they want and make sure it stays there.
WHAT :o :o

I never knew that.

I am certain that some landowners I know with rivers running through there land are also not aware of it and certainly will be up in arms if they find members of the public trying to walk all over their land, which had no public access or right of way before.

In one case knowing the farmer good luck to the first person to try it, if what would come out of his mouth did not stop them I suspect the mention of a shotgun would!

I can see this potentially having unexpected consequences in the future.

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Saffron wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:40 pm
WHAT :o :o

I never knew that.

I am certain that some landowners I know with rivers running through there land are also not aware of it and certainly will be up in arms if they find members of the public trying to walk all over their land, which had no public access or right of way before.

In one case knowing the farmer good luck to the first person to try it, if what would come out of his mouth did not stop them I suspect the mention of a shotgun would!

I can see this potentially having unexpected consequences in the future.

Evan
If correct I don't think that affects the vast majority of land in England. Correct me if I'm wrong but the land would have to fall under "open access land" first. If it isn't then they have no right of access. You can look up the areas of "open access land" on the Natural England website. Evan, I don't think your landowners need worry.

I know there has been a big push for open access to waterways (not the adjacent land) but hadn't seen any change in the legislation as yet - Cath, have you got it?
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Oxgirl wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:27 pm
Correct - the right is JUST to walk over it or whatever is allowed in the access rights for that piece of land.
Lovely snowy day and wonderfully quiet when I was out in the woods early this morning.

That's not quite the case for footpaths or indeed any highway (footpaths are highways). There is plenty of case law covering footpaths, the right of pass and re-pass AND to undertake what might be considered a reasonable activity while on the footpath. The test is reasonableness.

Add to that the Public Order Act defines any highway (footpath) as a 'public space' and that's important as the Act has to cover gatherings and what those gathering can do on and from a footpath (highway).

However, if you disturb or damage the soil of the footpath that would be considered trespass BUT you wouldn't be trespassing if you had the owner's permission to disturb the soil.

This all stemmed from a conversation with the owner of one of my permissions where we concluded you could detect in a 'public space' (footpath) but not the adjacent 'private' land - which he thought bonkers. Let me stress - I don't go digging up footpaths! It was just one of those curious discussions that normally occur after a few beers. And, I doubt that when the rules said you could detect in a 'public space' footpaths ever crossed their minds.
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From the Highways act 1980
Disturbance of surface of certain highways.
(1)A person who, without lawful authority or excuse, so disturbs the surface of—
(a)a footpath,
(b)a bridleway, or
(c)any other highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway other than a made-up carriageway, as to render it inconvenient for the exercise of the public right of way is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(2)Proceedings for an offence under this section shall be brought only by the highway authority or the council of the non-metropolitan district, parish or community in which the offence is committed; and, without prejudice to section 130 (protection of public rights) above, it is the duty of the highway authority to ensure that where desirable in the public interest such proceedings are brought.
So, it looks like it is an offence to damage a footpath to make it unusable but you probably have lawful authority as you have permission from the landowner.

It is all about the legal definition of a footpath of whether it is a public space or not. It is a right of way but not necessarily a public space. Would be interested to see it written where a public footpath is a legal public space.
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DaveP
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TheFenTiger wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:45 pm
It is all about the legal definition of a footpath of whether it is a public space or not. It is a right of way but not necessarily a public space.
I'm sure this is the sort of thing where lawyers can make a lot of money!

Have a look at section 16 of the Public Order Act 1986 and up to date as of 2021. Footpaths are highways and highways are defined as a public space. Section 14, I think, covers some of the do's and don'ts. It then becomes obvious why footpaths would be classed as a public space as part of the act.
Another one to look at is the case law set out in DPP vs Jones 1999. You'll need to read the whole thing, which is too long, but it does show some interesting other cases. Just for interest you could take a picture from a footpath, which is not part of the definition of only for pass and re-pass but is a reasonable thing to be doing, but they also have a case where taking a picture from a footpath constitutes trespass.

It's all a bit academic and probably not wise to be arguing the toss with a bunch of grumpy ramblers that you have permission to dig a hole in their favourite footpath :lol:
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DaveP wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:31 pm It's all a bit academic and probably not wise to be arguing the toss with a bunch of grumpy ramblers that you have permission to dig a hole in their favourite footpath :lol:
Exactly, there is nothing at all to argue about. As long as you suitably fill the hole in to make good then there is simply no issue. When I see a mob heading my way wearing the traditional rambling gear of bobble hats and trousers tucked in socks swinging walking poles trying to look all proper I just head away from the footpaths until they've passed by. :D
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Did you know you can drive a vehicle on a footpath :wink:
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Easylife
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DaveP wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:20 am Did you know you can drive a vehicle on a footpath :wink:
It's the norm in Vietnam. Do you mean a RUPP?
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Easylife wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:05 pm Do you mean a RUPP?
No, it's a mobility scooter on any footpath although you are limited to 4mph :lol:

One thing that I hadn't thought about which is recorded in the case law. When footpaths were established with a right of pass and re-pass they didn't foresee the future e.g. motorised mobility scooters which are classed as vehicles. There's a host of other things but the test appears to come down to what is reasonable. Even something like stopping for a sandwich isn't covered by pass and re-pass but would be reasonable assuming you don't impede others. There's even a case about a chap carrying a canoe to get to the river where the footpath runs through it.
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DaveP wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:21 pm It's a mobility scooter on any footpath although you are limited to 4mph :lol:
One of those mobility scooters t-boned the side of my van, if they had shot out into the road at full chat a couple of seconds sooner it could have been quite messy! Fortunately the only casualty was their shopping in the front basket and a line along my paintwork.
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