Institute of Detectorists

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Danté
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Steve_JT wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:19 pm I filled in and sent the one I had too

I left no doubt to my thoughts on the "Institute" in my responses............come to that the person that represents it received both barrels.

He is one of those sort of people with the skin of an elephant , worryingly he has the ear of the archaeology community and Historic England and models the benchmark on himself, a self proclaimed expert that will bring harm to the hobby IMHO

If he told me it was raining I would look out of the window to check to see if it was

Regards Steve
Most likely won't be rain, rather P!$$ing on your back.... :Thinking:
Steve RC
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It certainly seems that the NCMD's considered stance on the I o D from the outset has been vindicated despite the flak the organisation received from certain parties for doing so.

Having met the man some years ago and discussed a number of times what he was wanting to do, the negative impression i formed of him at the time as a person and what he was wanting to do has not changed. Despite trying to exchange considered views and reasoned arguments with him on another forum all i got was a slagging off and grief from a mod who is "one of the gang" so to speak.

Perhaps the wheels are starting to come off the wagon for this project. However after spending so much taxpayers money EH are unlikley to want to see it wasted, similar to the 100K or so they spent on the Nighthawks and Nighthawking Project several years ago which spawned a number of ideas for follow up projects which were quietly forgotten about so the original report now gathers dust on many shelves as it does mine. Will the I o D be the same ?
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Steve_JT
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The agenda seems for personal gain and not altruistic, does nothing for the detecting community, PAS or general archaeology but will just line his own pockets with what he is offering, he's just lining it all up to kick in, how he convinced Historic England to part with £50,000 needs clarifying for sure, at least an explanation and breakdown if Westcott has nothing to hide

Regarding the PAS I would think if Wescott's pet project gets off the ground it will lead to much loss to recording and harm the relationships already formed

Those that endorsed him whom provide to the detecting community, and have done for many years may face a boycott of the products they sell, without mentioning names it would cause them some loss of business no doubt, if Westcott's scheme gets a green light it will no doubt cause loss to the businesses that endorsed him as there will be less need for products or back up or any publications, perhaps this is why some are now backtracking?

Regards Steve
A foolish faith in authority, is the worst enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
Steve RC
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The actions of some previously supportive parties is certainly generating some worthwhile debate.

I feel it useful to add that the Institute is to be run by a Community Interest Company or CIC which Mr Westcott set up recently. He also is the owner or involved in several companies and i suggest that anyone interested in background details of these should carry out a Google search to see what information Companies House holds on these. The last time i looked there were 12 , some active and some dissloved. You may also need to search using his middle name of Mark.

Under the terms and conditions for a CIC it cannot be run as a profit generator hence Mr.Wescott frequently makes mention that the Institute will be a not for profit company. However what has not been made clear that a CIC allows for Directors or in the case of the Institute, Managing Director, to claim a market rate salary for the work they are doing. It also allows for others to be appointed as advisors or specialists who can likewise claim a market rate salary.

A little bit of research can reveal much. Enjoy.
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DaveP
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Steve RC wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:22 pm The actions of some previously supportive parties is certainly generating some worthwhile debate.
Is there somewhere, other than FB, where that can be viewed?
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DaveP
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The simple fact is he markets himself and his proposition well and better than others. You do realise that everyone who takes part in the survey becomes a statistic in his favour!

If the 'detecting community' wonder why people like him get attention, you only have to look at the lack of PAS reporting by the finder of a the nationally important horse broach recently sold at auction and spread all across the press. The community makes his life too easy.

And in case you wonder which side of the fence I'm on, I had my run in with him on another forum, got suitably mis-quoted on a Polish blog and, for other reasons including challenging a particular admin, got banned from you know where.
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Oxgirl
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DaveP wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:46 pm Is there somewhere, other than FB, where that can be viewed?
Twitter has a few posts too :thumbsup:
Yes I really don’t like Roman coins, I’m not joking
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figgis
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Steve RC wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:22 pm The actions of some previously supportive parties is certainly generating some worthwhile debate.
It seems that all the "previously supportive bodies" that have given this a body swerve (pardon the pun) are commercial outlets. Basically, shops that thought association would be a good thing for sales until the recent brouhahah caused a swift rethink. :roll:
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DaveP
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[quote=Oxgirl post_id=16412 time=1615663824 user_id=48

Twitter has a few posts too :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Now why on earth would I be registered with Twitter unless it's to follow Piers Morgan :lol:
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figgis
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:lol:

I'm as "social media" ignorant as you'll find, but I've found a lot of stuff by doing a search for the 'players' on FB. One thing I've learned above anything else: I need a bigger bag of popcorn :lol:
jcmaloney
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Well he paid himself £3k for writing the proposal....... :shock:

The recently announced "crowd funded" relaunch of Time Team is on his Broughton Castle roman villa site.

The hobby left the door open, the hobby unleashed the social media "pay to dig groups", the hobby doesn`t do itself any favours.

Had we remained as crusty old clubs managing the newcomers, the same crusty old clubs providing the point of contact for FLO`s, the same crusty old clubs embedding in the local community and museums etc then the IOD wouldn`t even have got the grant.

Unfortunately we made ourselves "visible" and rapidly became viewed as a problem by the establishment and here we are.

Westcott will carry on, well funded, making the right noises to the right people and our hobby will be become restricted.

The new ELMS scheme could easily be the vehicle for that, the historic environment could be added to it. "Only allow suitably trained detectorists on your land or we`ll take your payment...... for the public good".
I`m Marmite me. Opinionated, obstinate and somewhat tenacious.
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I am not aware of what made some of the commercial members of the Advisory Group leave and perhaps that will become clear in the coming days/weeks. It would seem from reading between the lines that something was proposed by the AoD which they did not agree with presumably at a zoom meeting or similar.

£3000 seems a good payout which is probably the going daily rate for a consultant via ( Westcott Consultancy), but the actual production of the Project Design was done in conjunction with Manda Forster of Dig Ventures i believe, so she will also have been paid a handsome sum. These two are part of the Project Team of the AoD along with Dr. Mike Heyworth MBE , former Director of the CBA and now heading his own consultancy on Archaeology and Heritage matters. Hence there are three individuals who presumably will be seeking to draw an income from this venture as it develops and perhaps the going rate is £300 per day.

I recall hearing that Keith Westcott stated in his interview with Archaeology and Metal Detecting Magazine, that he had received 18K from the grant given by English Heritage and one can guess where much of the rest has gone. So on balance it would seem that the funds have for the moment been depleted so the AoD will be looking to tap into other funding sources such as the National Lottery Heritage Fund to maintain momentum. The latter can provide generous levels of funding considering the monies the PAS has received for projects such as the PASt Explorers and so the need for membership funding may not be that critical if an application is successful.

To explore whatever the AoD is intending to do next will perhaps not need to be sanctioned or supported by any detectorists other than by the narrow viewpoints of those that sit on the AoD Focus Group.

As JCMaloney says the obvious target would be to influence the next generation of Agri- environment schemes which has been done so in the past by some of the organisations listed as Project Stakeholders in the AoD Project Design. The ultimate influence will be exercised by English Heritage who are the official advisors on archaeological matters to HMG and they have a designated Senior Policy Advisor part of who's remit is to develop policy on metal detecting matters.

Finally picking up on your last point crusty old clubs are very much in decline with the younger cohorts of metal detectorists not interested in them or if they are they are, reluctant to actually get involved in running them. The knock on affect of this is a slow demise of many and the affectiveness of most which then shows as a decline in the NCMD Regional structure and the NCMD itself.
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TheFenTiger
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The "crusty old clubs" are in decline as they are not giving the newer, younger members access to land which is what they want and has created the pay to dig groups. Not moving with the times and being agile with social media and member engagement has resulted in opportunities being seen and exploited. The same with the 2 detecting hobby representatives bunker mentality regarding the archaeology fraternity has given an opportunist the in he needed by offering a promise to reform a hobby that does itself no favours.
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Steve RC
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Not that many clubs have access to land with members having their own sites to visit, making club meetings more of a social event. Similarly many clubs have not updated themselves to the social media world which in many ways is a blessing with all the nonsense that is put on there and so on.

Bunker mentality - well that may be your own personal perception, but there is a lot more to what is going on in the hobby as it is now or was at least before Covid. Giving anyone an in as you say is not the way i view it as an NCMD member ,but more of a self appointed detecting representative and business man with a new idea with which to make money, perhaps seen to be a useful idiot by some in the archaeological establishment to be used to further certain agendas.
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Steve RC wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:14 pm more of a self appointed ego seeker who has been seen as a useful idiot by some in the archaeological establishment to be used to further certain agendas.
Sums Keith Westcott up, he’s very up himself ,not shy to inform how wonderful he is with his achievements

Regards Steve
A foolish faith in authority, is the worst enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
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