Early military button?

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Oxgirl
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On Saturday I went on a very quiet field. Found very little. In fact I think I only dug 10 signals in 2 hours, but then I was distracted by watching a sheep giving birth to twin lambs just over the hedge and a dash into the same field to get a heavily pregnant ewe off her back. I really do need to get new glasses as I saw a blob in the field that looked wrong. As I squinted I realised it was a woolly ball with legs in the air. Took a 5 minute walk to find a gate as I didn’t fancy going over the very secure barbed wire topped fence! Remarkably she was easy to get back on her feet and she waddled off shaking her bum. It was nice as I got to see a number of other newly born lambs still being cleaned by their proud mothers. Unusually for these parts the flock aren’t put in sheds to give birth.

Anyways went back to detecting and the ‘highlight’ was this button. It’s domed, of high tin content and subsequently not in the best condition. It feels 18th century. But is it? Thoughts welcome please :D My best guess is a button from the Worcestershire Regiment, although found on the Oxon/ Bucks border. I think the motto is Honi soit qui mal y pense
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30C02502-DE4C-4EF5-82C8-580890E01A19.jpeg
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Easylife
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Very nice, an early one piece military button. I can only make out the lion centre. :thumbsup:
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Saffron
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First of all very well done on rescuing the ewe that had become cast, sadly its not unusual for a heavilly pregnant ewe to die if not put back on its feet before to long after being cast.
(For anybody not used to the countryside, sheep do NOT sunbathe .... if one is on its back with legs pointing skywards it has got cast and will need help getting back on to its feet).

The lion and motto certainly match the Worcestershire Regiment.

However, "Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense," which translatable as "Shame Be To Him Who Evil Thinks" (or various very slight variants depending on source) is not uncommon, nor is the lion.

Being local to me I would love to say it is the Worcestershire Regiment, and it could well be, but the examples of the regimental button that I have found online are have the lion and motto within the star, as per the cap badge. But this looks an older version than those that I have seen. So your ID could be correct.

Any chance of giving it a bit of a clean so the writting in the scroll at the bottom could be read?.

Evan
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Easylife
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It looks to be made of lead/alloy. If that is 10 on the back the maker could be Firmin 10 Clare ct so maybe date about 1820?
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Oxgirl
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It’s crumbly so I don’t think I can get it any cleaner. Any acid based cleaning options are likely to do more damage than good. I will however look to see if I can use a gentle manual process to get rid of some encrustrations and repost pics if that helps.

Thank you for the comments :Luv Ya:
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Steve_JT
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Well done saving the sheep, don’t last long like that :thumbsup:

Got this, lot to go through but may be of use
https://asahelena.wixsite.com/militarybuttons

Regards Steve
A foolish faith in authority, is the worst enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
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Saffron
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Easylife wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:32 am It looks to be made of lead/alloy. If that is 10 on the back the maker could be Firmin 10 Clare ct so maybe date about 1820?
If that is a "10" on the back equating to Firmin 10 Clare ct and a date of about 1820 then at that time the Worcestershire Regiment just had a "29" on the button (for the 29th Regiment of Foot )

Evan
stanslad
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Let me have a look in my old photos Cath,
Looks similar to a Kings Own Militia Royal Bucks buttons I found on uncle’s farm just over border into north Bucks,
I’ll have a look.
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Here’s an old photo of the type of buttons I kept finding a couple of miles into north Bucks.
It says...
Kings own militia in garter & Royal Bucks along bottom?
Clint
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Saffron
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A nice selection there Stanslad, well found.

Going by the excellent site that Steve_JT listed above https://asahelena.wixsite.com/militarybuttons (which I have used several times and strongly recommend) I assume you know the ID of the "14" button. The 14th was the Bedfordshire Regt of Foot until 1809 when it changed to the Buckinghamshire. This example has a date of C1790-1800, although this design style remained in use until 1838.

While the Bucks Yeomanry button definitely dates from at least 1803 to 1820, and probably worn prior to 1801 as well.


By looking at the DESIGN I prefer the idea of Oxgirls button being a Kings Own Militia Royal Bucks button to the alternative Worcestershire Regiment.

But the problem is the text.
For it to be the local Kings Own Militia Royal Bucks the text should be "Kings own militia"
But Oxgirl says its "Honi soit qui mal y pense"

I know that due to lockdown Specsavers have been shut but that is heck of a difference.

Evan
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Oxgirl
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Saffron wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:06 pm A nice selection there Stanslad, well found.

Going by the excellent site that Steve_JT listed above https://asahelena.wixsite.com/militarybuttons (which I have used several times and strongly recommend) I assume you know the ID of the "14" button. The 14th was the Bedfordshire Regt of Foot until 1809 when it changed to the Buckinghamshire. This example has a date of C1790-1800, although this design style remained in use until 1838.

While the Bucks Yeomanry button definitely dates from at least 1803 to 1820, and probably worn prior to 1801 as well.


By looking at the DESIGN I prefer the idea of Oxgirls button being a Kings Own Militia Royal Bucks button to the alternative Worcestershire Regiment.

But the problem is the text.
For it to be the local Kings Own Militia Royal Bucks the text should be "Kings own militia"
But Oxgirl says its "Honi soit qui mal y pense"

I know that due to lockdown Specsavers have been shut but that is heck of a difference.

Evan
I think I do need to go to Specsavers :shock: The writing is hard to read so I think I may have projected a bit :oops:

Brilliant help Clint thank you! Looks like a Royal Bucks one. I can try and date in now :D
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stanslad
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Oxgirl wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:08 pm I think I do need to go to Specsavers :shock: The writing is hard to read so I think I may have projected a bit :oops:

Brilliant help Clint thank you! Looks like a Royal Bucks one. I can try and date in now :D
The buttons in my photo are the ones on the military button website that Steve recommended, Mick (Yeti) sent them on to the site after I asked for help about them after I dug them on that other forum years ago.
So the site would have dated them along with the Bicester volunteers buttons I found also.
Clint :thumbsup:
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Easylife
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stanslad wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:21 pm So the site would have dated them.
They say 1820 - 1855 by the front design. But I guess is likely 1820's by the makers back stamp. :thumbsup:
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Oxgirl
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Well after a bit more research it seems pewter buttons were used pretty much throughout the 19th century. This one seems to be one from the 1830s if the ENGLISH MILITIA REGIMENTS, 1757-1935: THEIR BADGES AND BUTTONS
H. G. Parkyn
is to be believed.
7F506262-C2C9-4803-89D7-42E33093664B.jpeg
You have all been brilliant, thank you :Luv Ya:
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Saffron
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Oxgirl wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:15 am Well after a bit more research it seems pewter buttons were used pretty much throughout the 19th century. This one seems to be one from the 1830s if the ENGLISH MILITIA REGIMENTS, 1757-1935: THEIR BADGES AND BUTTONS
H. G. Parkyn
is to be believed.

7F506262-C2C9-4803-89D7-42E33093664B.jpeg

You have all been brilliant, thank you :Luv Ya:
It just did not look quite right for my local Worcestershire Regiment, well done to Stanslad he pointed us in the right direction.

Interesting that the item says the buttons of the 1800 period bore the Royal Cypher within the Garter and motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense".
While the latter versions had the Lion of England within a crowned circle inscribed with the title of the Regiment.

So if Oxgirl has avoided an appointment at Specsavers (other opticians are available) and is correct about the motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" which is on the early buttons this seems to be a "change over" period button as it has the Lion of England in the centre which is the latter version.

Evan
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