NCMD statement regarding IoD (14/08/2020

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TerraBritannia
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Well said!
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Mucky
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The ultimate authority is the landowner. If he says I can dig I will, and that will be the end of it!
I will not be needing any more validation than that! :thumbsup:
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Bors
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I was going to comment but after reading Jans Post ,she basically said everything I was going to say.
Who are these Iod people anyway, & who decided they spoke on behalf of metaldetectorists? Or come to that who decided to listen to them even . Slap them down and don`t let them become a representative of anyone.. They sound a bit " EU" ish. Voted into power by no one ,but speaking on behalf of many ,without the many knowing anything about it.
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Easylife
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By all means any bodies could advise people on how best to use a tool (detector), best practice and all that common sense stuff. But if compulsory paid for certified training was introduced then where would it stop? Well it just wouldn't! Power tools, garden tools, etc, oh no you will have to get a certified user in to drill that hole to hang a picture or trim the shrubs! Just what a crock of! I agree that it is creating a fix for a problem that does not exist as a means to financially benefit the creator, rather than being in the wider interest. If they refuse to give any straight answers then just get a petition going objecting to their scheme before it's too late? It just seems like an underhand move by the anti-detecting mob? :thumbdown:
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Steve RC
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Very true. There have been several self promoters of good ideas for detecting over the years by individuals and groups who are accountable to no one and the bottom line has generally been to make money.

The only one we really need is the PAS and a properly funded one at that and not diversions.
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DaveP
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Steve RC wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:45 am
The only one we really need is the PAS and a properly funded one at that and not diversions.
Well, in British Archaeology, May-June 2019, in a section that looks to be authored by Keith Westcott, it says:
A possible approach, currently stage funded by Historic England from a feasibility perspective, is to develop a national Institute (for detectorists) in support of the Portable Antiquities Scheme, a balanced approach steered by archaeologists and detectorists, developing standards and guidance while offering archaeologically based education. A fundamental objective would be for detectorists to financially contribute towards supporting the pas, with a percentage of the membership fee being used for this purpose.

"A fundamental objective..." To play this through. If we are only talking about the few detectorists helping out on official archaeological sites then that won't contribute much money to the PAS. You will need a lot of detectorists to make a substantial financial contribution to help the PAS. That requires a "membership" far larger than that required to work on official sites. If I don't work on official sites I won't need to be a member. Or, will there be some other requirement put in place that means I have to be a member?

And it isn't only Westcott in the publication "A licence to own and use a metal detector would be a good first step.Tom Redmayne is an independent detectorist and self-recorder from Lincolnshire
jcmaloney
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As I have a spare 5 minutes............

There is a need for an element of control in the hobby. There I said it.

As it currently stands there are "pay to rip" clubs effectively rampaging across the country hitting as much ground as they can for ££££`s.
Compare that to the traditional "bricks and mortar" clubs that provide a measured level of education and responsibility.

Of course the newcomer wants to "dig up treasure" and they have paid so its finders keepers and stuff the recording. The newcomer doesn`t want to engage with the boring stuff....its diggity,diggity,diggity and move on to the next signal.

The archaeological world see`s the hobby as the modern equivalent to bird nesters and egg collectors exploiting a finite resource.

A solution is needed and Mr Westcott has ventured into the bear pit to provide that, but gone way too far in the opposite direction.

We (the hobby) need to develop a solution before one is imposed on us.

So what could that look like?

In Dorset they made a start, I don`t know how successful it proved to be. https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/librar ... cheme.aspx

Then there is the Mudlark scheme run by the PLA.

Or a "registration scheme" with FLO`s/PAS or traditional clubs so that the education/recording part is at the forefront.

The options to be considered or adapted by us before the hobby destroys itself.
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Pete E
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Maybe Archeologists and dig olunteers should also be licenced and pay a contribution?
Blackadder43
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jcmaloney wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:26 am Of course the newcomer wants to "dig up treasure" and they have paid so its finders keepers and stuff the recording. The newcomer doesn`t want to engage with the boring stuff....its diggity,diggity,diggity and move on to the next signal.
Not all newcomers, in fact i would hazard a guess at a very small element of newcomers have the attitude you speak of.

Just look at the members we have here
A few are relatively new to our hobby, yet show great awareness when out in the fields, are making huge efforts to record their finds, and making even more effort to learn the ways of the hobby

The language we use to talk about our hobby needs to change
Its not always newcomers that are putting the hobby at risk.
jcmaloney
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Watch the huge FB detecting pages/groups.

Newbie: "I just bought a detector, where can I go?"

99% of the time the answer...... "Look up "XYZ" FB Group and pay your fee"

Our "old fashioned club" welcome new members, hurdle number one............ they need to come along to a meeting to do the paperwork.
The amount of replies we get saying "I just want to come on digs, don`t want to bother with meetings"..................

The large cash groups enjoy the "churn" of newcomers as they just keep taking them back to the same fields because the newcomers think it`s "new" and the longer term members just cherry pick their digs.

This time of year you will also notice those cash groups fighting for punters..... some of the dig site descriptions are at best imaginative, at worst downright misleading.

Easy fix- No digs/rallies of more than 30 added in to the new ELMS scheme. :thumbsup:

The "business model" becomes nonviable and it reverts to sad old saps with plates on sticks.... :D :D
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TheFenTiger
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jcmaloney wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:19 pm
Easy fix- No digs/rallies of more than 30 added in to the new ELMS scheme. :thumbsup:

The "business model" becomes nonviable and it reverts to sad old saps with plates on sticks.... :D :D
Or they organize 3 digs of 30 people on 3 adjacent fields. The Historic England requirement of notifying them of any detecting rally 12 weeks beforehand is completely ignored anyway so unless it is policed nothing will change. I am not sure where we are with rallies post COVID anyway as I thought that it was still limited to 30 but I know of some commercial events with getting on for 100+ most weekends.

https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/c ... ment-land/
Rallies
Natural England requires up to 12 weeks notice of any large scale metal detecting events (known as rallies) on Environmental Stewardship land. Metal detecting rally organisers should follow the Guidance on Metal-Detecting Rallies in England and Wales.
I notice PAS has no guidance for rallies now.

https://finds.org.uk/getinvolved/guides/rallycode
Metal-detecting rallies

The PAS does not provide advice for metal-detecting rally organisers

Large scale metal-detecting events (rallies) do not provide the ideal circumstances for Portable Antiquities Scheme (PAS) staff to record finds in the field, and can therefore result in the loss of much archaeological information, including information about the findspot.

Therefore finders attending such events should ensure they follow the Code of Practice for Responsible Metal-detecting in England and Wales (2017) and record their finds retrospectively. Finds Liaison Officers (FLOs) may attend rallies to promote best practice and may take in finds for recording later, but not (normally) to record finds in the field.
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Steve_JT
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My take on rallies is thus; it may be controversial but here goes.
Amongst those that detect honestly and responsibly there may be (MAY BE) some, not all, that come to plunder and not declare, later to be “found” on a personal permission, even claim to have found items that MAY have been found under dubious circumstances to give provenance to something, just in it to make a quick profit and look bonafide.

1, Is it a free for all, money accepted crack on
2, Are NCMD memberships checked
3, Is insurance checked
4, Are all finds declared
5, Are all those on the dig known to at least one member of the organising club
6, Are club digs seeded to claim it’s a productive event for future digs

Perhaps a licence of some type is needed??? but it needs co-operation from all the bodies in dialogue to determine a way forward before it all runs into disrepute and possible ban
Archies need to accept it is the Detectorists that finds items in the 12 inch layer they scrape away and ignore, we even responsibly inform them of items they go on to excavate and record, if not for us they would not know it was there.
Why are so many anti metal detecting, when we keep them in a job

Regards Steve
A foolish faith in authority, is the worst enemy of truth." Albert Einstein
jcmaloney
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If you made it "30 detecting on a land holding" under ELMS that stops the 3 x 30 issue.
If you made the punishment a 50% reduction of payments it would sort itself out.

ELMS pilots in 2021 with a full roll out for 2024........... how full that is remains to be seen, but a new world is coming where Environment management will include the Historical Environment as well.
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Leeloo
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Well done to the NCMD for seeing the light :thumbsup:

IOD just sounds like a "Trojan horse" :shock:

Any government grants should have been invested in the PAS
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Littleboot
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Surely people of a certain age have realised by now that policing and rules are meant to apply control (and restrict) the largely law-abiding. Be it traffic regulations or detecting regulations or the law of the land in general. . It is always the people who are already of a mind to do the right thing who are the ones who are policed. And occasionally fall foul of the letter of the law by human frailty or error.
The actual people with a criminal mentality sail on as they have always done.
Every one knows this.Everyone can think of an example.
The people who ignore the current rules, guidance, code and laws will no doubt ignore any additional stuff that is put in place. I have yet to see any meaningful way they can be policed. And that, in a nutshell, underlines the fact that any new initiatives are very much aimed at controlling and restricting the people who simply want to enjoy their hobby in a responsible way. Make no mistake, the whole thrust of this new narrative is based on elitism. It has happened in other sports. As more people take to a pastime there is a kick-back of people who want to restrict numbers....usually be hitting the hoi palloi in the pocket and pricing them out.

And I am sick and tired of the narrative that detectorists have to start from the position of being guilty of being after treasure and trashing history without scruple and somehow having to prove otherwise. I expect it from some archies who have an axe to grind and a job to protect.....but it doesn't go over big with me when detectorists do it in a search for moral high ground over others. Very disappointing. and does not bode well.
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