A detecting experience!

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Easylife
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I was camping on a friends 6 acre horse paddock over the weekend for our combined birthdays, mine today! I took the detector along as a formality of mine just in case there was some possible opportunity to use it at all, as you do! But permission was soon granted so I did a bit though it was very quiet. But my main intention was for them to have a go with the Nox 800 just for a new experience and thought that in all metal with 50 tones, my usual, was not an ideal starter for them. So to simplify it I first changed to just 5 tones and I didn't like it at all, then changed to just 2 tones and realized that I would be digging up just so much crap if I used that as it made all of the iffys just sound really good regardless. And just how off-putting would that be for a first timer? So I left it in 50 tones which I am best attuned to and just turned off all metal. But then found that when just on the detector speaker it sounded so distorted and alien compared to using the headphones, like using a completely different detector even! But onwards and upwards I could still decipher it! With them by my side I first had a bit of a swing just to demonstrate that the odd pop or chirp was just iron breaking through and that it's only the more solid repeatable signals that we were after. They started off surprisingly quite good for having no previous experience or directions at all, coil reasonably flat though perhaps 4” above the extremely short pasture. Perhaps swinging a little fast but from just the occasional single solid beep that they had passed I pointed out some potentially good targets that warranted a re-check. They still had difficulty in locating them so passed the detector back for me to precisely locate, it's just technique and experience really, though the targets were very small and quite easily missed. The land was quite remote and very quiet of targets but just in that short time I realized how easily it was for a newbie to miss so many good targets and also potentially waste much time in digging so much unnecessary iron if not for a helping hand of guidance? There didn't appear to be much on offer, I searched for about 2 hrs alone and my best finds were a barrel tap key and a Vicky halfpenny. My friend in about 15 mins found a rotted shotty and a saddle tack before they seemed to lose interest, though I did point out that their land was particularly quite of targets compared to some others. Still I donated my meagre finds to them as some history of their land which seemed to be appreciated. The socializing was the main thing this weekend and detecting just an off shoot. Only a very small part was covered so who knows what could be laying in wait to be discovered though I can't honestly say that I would really expect anything great to be there, but still know that anything is possible!
I had a couple of unexpected experiences here, one first-hand of a complete newbie using my machine that I know so well, which was kind of interesting? But the other was that I could never use 5 tones or especially 2 tones ever again, but not that I do, as that target info is just too limited to fully understand what the machine is actually trying to tell you! :thumbsup:
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TerraBritannia
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Firstly, happy birthday to you! :thumbsup: :Party: :clapping:

I only use 50 tones and I also don't like using the speaker on the Equinox. :thumbdown:
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Oxgirl
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Happy birthday from me too :Party:

I think all detectors should be used in as many tones as the machine gives you and fully open with no iron discrimination then you find so much more. Good to do something different though :D

Enjoy your evening, hope you have fun :Luv Ya:
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Oxgirl wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:11 pm Happy birthday from me too :Party:

I think all detectors should be used in as many tonnes as the machine gives you and fully open with no iron discrimination then you find so much more. Good to do something different though :D

Enjoy your evening, hope you have fun :Luv Ya:
I really can't get my head around detecting with no iron discrimination...I have tried a few times but started to suffer from brain-fry..... I might be able to use it like that on clean ground, but that is few and far between where I detect...
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Pete E wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:31 pm
I really can't get my head around detecting with no iron discrimination...I have tried a few times but started to suffer from brain-fry..... I might be able to use it like that on clean ground, but that is few and far between where I detect...
I've tried a few times using the Nox with iron audio turned off and I just can't get used to it, I always end up turning it back on again thinking that I might be missing out on something. :D
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Oxgirl
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Pete E wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:31 pm I really can't get my head around detecting with no iron discrimination...I have tried a few times but started to suffer from brain-fry..... I might be able to use it like that on clean ground, but that is few and far between where I detect...
Really? I never use discrimination. You heed to hear the iron cause it tells you loads of info and knocking it out reduces depth. It can be hard on your ears on some fields without some adjustments though :D
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I don't subscribe to the 'use as many tones as available' line of thinking. It doesn't really hold good with modern machines with lots of tones. In the old days when things were more limited it paid to use all the ammo you had available. Now, I think it can be counter productive in a sledge-hammer for a nut way at times. In much the same way as having a machine on max sensitivity. It is often better to ramp back a tad.
I know my ground. I prefer my sensitivity at 20. I prefer 5 tones. i cannot stand 50 tones yodelling at me. I simply don'y enjoy it. At all.
5 gives me ample info. That is be cause my default position is to dig a signal. If it is steady-ish and if it repeats even a tad and has the right vibe I will dig it...whether it has a slight iron grunt or a low tone or a really low positive number. i dig it. I can recognise deep big iron by the usual tricks and I have learned when a tone is too broken and too grunty to be viable. It doesn't have to play me the 1812 Overture to tell me these things.

I have found that the Nox is deeper if I have the horse-shoe on and i can hear all the iron. I have tested this multiple times over non-ferrous targets. Some of them disappeared when the Iron was off. Another thing I have been doing on specific areas where I know stuff is liable to be deep....is detect with the machine still in air-balancing mode. As in i do the balance but then carry on detecting without switching back to normal detecting mode. I did this by accident and actually found several deep targets I could not detect at all with any other tweaks.
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Oxgirl wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:22 pm Really? I never use discrimination. You heed to hear the iron cause it tells you loads of info and knocking it out reduces depth. It can be hard on your ears on some fields without some adjustments though :D
I realise I am probably missing some stuff, but I look at this way, what's better detecting for three or hours or longer with the discrimination, or having to give up after 60 to 90 minutes without discrimination?

On iron infested ground, I am not actually sure what the benefit of hunting continuously in all metal is? That's a genuine question?

Having said all that, I do switch into all metal fairly frequently to check iffy signals ect, but I suppose I should be doing it more often...
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90% of the time horse shoe on 5 tone's don't really take any notice of number's if it sound's worth digging i dig it. used the same setting's on the nox for the past year seem's to work for me.
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Pete E wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:45 pm

On iron infested ground, I am not actually sure what the benefit of hunting continuously in all metal is? That's a genuine question?
For me i feel discriminating iron out has given your machine a further instruction to carry out
Whether you want to hear the iron or not, the machine still sees it, processes it, then has to null that sound out and move on
I see that extra instruction as a delay (millisecond granted), so that affects the recovery ready for the next signal
That all depends on whether the default setting in the program is to always sound iron as a signal, which i assume it would be as its a metal detector

On iron infested sites its odds on your find will be near iron, that iron may mask it out from 1 direction, but from another may give you an iron/good signal in quick, almost continuous fashion.
Some of those signals with all metal on then you instantly recognise as the sharp end of an iron object, confirmed with the iron/hightone screech signal you hear
With it switched off you will hear the hightone, and have to check the screen to determine any iron nulls going on...
Or if your machine has a threshhold setting, then a low humm will null if your machine sees iron, so a null with a hightone coule be interpreted as iron....but i'm guessing here as i have always been an all metal detectorist

Hunting with discrimination on for iron, you will still find stuff, thats for sure
But i suppose some people are seen as purist and want to know every signal the field is offering.

I fully get what you say about the bombardment on your ears, and your brain frying
There was an excellent mod a few years ago on another place, he was an hearing expert for the NHS
I think it was he who explained this as "brain fatigue"
Believe it or not your brain uses an extrordinary amount of energy, just to even get you through your day
When stressed your brain can use energy equivilent to running half marathons.

So when you are bombarding your brain with different sounds, each one needs to be listened too
When your brain starts getting tired or running out of energy, then it can start to group sounds into boxes, it can learn from what you tend to ignore i suppose
But the upshot is, your brain gets tired and it will stop you from hearing or recognising a good signal, this is known as Brain fatigue or cognitive fatigue
The remedy that Stephen spoke of was to take your headset off for at least 10 minutes every hour or so, this allows your brain to "reset"
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A target that is partially masked by iron may sound very iffy or may even be completely missed. But with all-metal on you will know that there is iron there possibly masking a target so with that in mind likely investigate more. The combination of 50 tones and simultaneous multi-frequency really comes into it's own on very deep targets beyond single frequency TID to determine non-ferrous presence.
What may sound like a blanket of iron on one detector may not to another. Though still best to keep the iron volume low so as to be aware of it's presence but without it being bothersome. On particularly noisy ground I do sometimes switch out of all-metal though don't mind it quietly burbling away in the background. :thumbsup:
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First thanks for talking the time and trouble for such a detailed answer, it's very much appreciated..
Blackadder43 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:24 pm On iron infested sites its odds on your find will be near iron, that iron may mask it out from 1 direction, but from another may give you an iron/good signal in quick, almost continuous fashion.
Some of those signals with all metal on then you instantly recognise as the sharp end of an iron object, confirmed with the iron/hightone screech signal you hear.
This is an aspect I am still learning and trying to get to grips with...

I am getting better at predicting what's going on but still digging iron probably more than I need to because I am hedging on the side of being cautious...This is one of the scenarios where I do switch into all metal to try to work out what's going on...

Another good indication I use alot that I don't see mentioned often is the indications that can be gleaned during pin pointing...if I get a good steady signal in one direction but the pin point shows the target is a few inches away, chances are it's the edge of my coil hitting iron..if I can get that good signal in two directions but the pin point is off, chances are it's a genuine target next to iron..obviously switching to all metal normally helps confirms this. I also find the pin point function gives me more info on the likely size and shape of the target which again helps to determine whether its likely to be iron or not...

Blackadder43 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:24 pm
I fully get what you say about the bombardment on your ears, and your brain frying
There was an excellent mod a few years ago on another place, he was an hearing expert for the NHS
I think it was he who explained this as "brain fatigue"
Believe it or not your brain uses an extrordinary amount of energy, just to even get you through your day
When stressed your brain can use energy equivilent to running half marathons.

So when you are bombarding your brain with different sounds, each one needs to be listened too
When your brain starts getting tired or running out of energy, then it can start to group sounds into boxes, it can learn from what you tend to ignore i suppose
But the upshot is, your brain gets tired and it will stop you from hearing or recognising a good signal, this is known as Brain fatigue or cognitive fatigue
The remedy that Stephen spoke of was to take your headset off for at least 10 minutes every hour or so, this allows your brain to "reset"
I can relate to all that completey. I started with a Racer 2, and one of the joys of the Nox on iron and coke infested ground is how quiet I could run it. I actually enjoyed detecting more and as I said, I can detect longer..

What I have been wondering (and hence my interest in this thread) is whether I should try running in all metal but perhaps with the machine dialled back a bit to say 20 in Field One to quieten it down a bit, as opposed to how I run at present which is with the machine at 24 in Field Two but with iron mostly discriminated out??

I have one small paddock I have hit hard, and the finds have definitely dried up now, and I am having to work to pick the difficult signals out from the iron...When the grass is next cut, it will be interesting to see if running in all metal for a few visits gets me anymore diggable signals..

Thanks again,

Regards

Peter
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Easylife
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Pete E wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:09 am What I have been wondering (and hence my interest in this thread) is whether I should try running in all metal but perhaps with the machine dialled back a bit to say 20 in Field One to quieten it down a bit, as opposed to how I run at present which is with the machine at 24 in Field Two but with iron mostly discriminated out??
The thing to do is next time you find an iffy amongst the iron (or any anywhere) is to experiment a bit. Compare with or without all-metal, Field 1 against Field 2, increase the reactivity or lower the sensitivity even. See what works best before digging the target and noting it's circumstances as to why it sounded a bit off. :thumbsup:
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Easylife wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:42 pm The thing to do is next time you find an iffy amongst the iron (or any anywhere) is to experiment a bit. Compare with or without all-metal, Field 1 against Field 2, increase the reactivity or lower the sensitivity even. See what works best before digging the target and noting it's circumstances as to why it sounded a bit off. :thumbsup:
Yes that's certainly sound advice and the way to learn.. However, let's just say sometimes I am guilty of letting the enthusiasm to dig trump the desire to learn! lol

Was hoping to get out for a few hours this afternoon but it looks like rain stops play... :thumbdown:
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Pete E wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:00 pm Was hoping to get out for a few hours this afternoon but it looks like rain stops play... :thumbdown:
Dry here tomorrow so I'll be on a new paddock that I've been waiting for the rain to soften. :thumbsup:
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